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February hill sessions »
What We Decided After The AGM
February 01, 2005
I can’t remember who brought this up; but we seemed to be agreed that someone should do something about new members. So from now on, every week someone is expected to volunteer to show beginners the route. As we formally start at 7pm, that means that the starter group will have to wait until then.
I think that the reason that the start time has drifted forwards as dramatically as it has is that the showers get cold too quickly, and the changing room fills up too much around 8pm. One way to avoid this is not to use the club house on the same night as the rugby boys, and it was suggested in the pub that we consider moving the club night to Wednesday.
John Griffin noted that we have a problem with retention of newer members, especially young women. Very few come in for a drink afterwards. Whether this is down to the cuisine the club offers or because of the shortage of presentable men (and with the exception of yours truly, you're all ugly bastards), no one is sure. We could do more in the way of being social and even friendly to newer members. Simon’s trips (see his Yorkshire Dales Update) aren’t limited to old hands.
I’m sure this will start an argument.
Posted by Dave at February 1, 2005 05:12 PM
I'm glad you've put something formal together Dave. I was afraid that despite the good intentions shown, nothing would really change. I think Jeff Aston made some notes of the debate, which will be helpful. Prior to any formal arrangements being suggested, what I would suggest to any current member of Croups is to be vigilant in the case of anyone turning up who looks like they need some help. No one is suggesting anything about compromising what may be your weekly burn-up, but at the very least point potential members in the direction of help, or give them information. We may be doing OK - but, as the old saying goes, "you never get a second chance to make a first impression", and the first one is often the most important one.
My feeling is that quite a lot could be achieved by utilising the willingness to help that already exists within the club. On Sunday 5 or 6 hands went up at the AGM to volunteer to help act as mentor, or call it what you will (mine amongst them). I think that there is a niche for one person to take responsibility and oversee this by arranging, via the website, a different willing volunteer to do the duty each club night. I reckon that 5 or 6 could provide nicely, without compromising their own individual training every week. When a new runner says that they can run quickly, we know who to send them to, and the mentor can accompany others who prefer a modest pace. I am happy to do it myself whilst I appreciate there must be democratic due process. I also see no reason why we cannot acknowledge two different start times, or alternatively say publicly, that runners leave between 6.30 and 7.00 (or whatever), with a mentor available at...(whenever). I can understand that some runners prefer to leave early for good reasons. I think that any new move to create a good welcome needs to be simple enough to be sustainable. The website has shown that it can work well to coordinate hill training so I am optimistic and happy to help. I will look forward to see what transpires on Thursday. I am sorry Dave, but I am stuck with my looks.
Well said Andy, In the last 2-3 years being a member of such a passionate running club, I have been aproached by several new-comers including one lady in the summer which she arrived about 6.45pm and I told her the group she needs to run with had just left.What I'm getting at is, putting the time on the website and word by mouth to 6.30pm would ease the pressure proposed on Mentors.ie a new starter who normally runs 8min per mile will catch the right person to run with, and if a 6min per miler newcomer turns up he woudn't mind waiting till 7pm in the changing rooms to have a chat with us until he or she finds out what time we really go off.
In other words give the new starter upto 30mins to find out about us and give us a chance to guide the newcomers, especially between march and june when London and the Castles Relays is happening.
I think this issue is incredibly important and it was very pleasing to see so many people willing to take on a 'mentor' role (Andy, Tim and Graeme were perhaps the most vocal). When we look at ourselves critically and assess the areas where we could improve, most of the really important issues seem to boil down to just one or two areas - facilities and encouragement. We can certainly address the latter quite easily and I believe the mentoring process could achieve that. I also feel that extra sessions (preferably coached) would help, but this does require commitment from a greater number of individuals (a pool of people sharing responsibility?). As far as the facilities are concerned, we can maximise what we have available to us by changing either our start times or our evening. Wednesday would mean that we don't have to compete with the Rugby players who clearly resent our presence. They seem unable to understand that we probably provide around £30k of subsidy to the Rugby club each year (salary for 3 members of staff?) and some of them enjoy making life difficult. Which is a shame. The bar area is perfect for socialising and giving announcements. If we did move evening, it would probably wreak havoc with a load of training regimes. Start times however, should definitely be adjusted. How about 6.45 for the fast paced group and a general start time of 6.30? That would mean we are all back before the rugby crowd. I also understand that the ladies shower block is normally in a shocking state. Perhaps it is unsurprising that we can't hold on to ladies who are perhaps more used to a leisure centre than a muddy, dark rugby changing room. I don't notice the mud and the darkness largely because I grew up Rugby clubs.
Now that concern has been voiced at the AGM and publicly here, We cannot let these issues lie. I would encourage people to attend the next committee meeting to discuss further and preferably initiate some action.
Thankfully none of these problems are rocket science!!!
Thankfully none of these problems are rocket science!!!
In that case, I can't help you.
I'm with Simon here. Adjusting the start times so we don't coincide with the rugger buggers sounds a logical move. The slower runners leave earlier so they can get back at the same time as the slightly faster runners, plus those doing a 10 miler don't want to get back to cold, filthy showers and a room so packed you end up sticking your face in someone else's arse.
As for the ladies...I can't stand the showers so God knows what these delicate young things would make of the ones we are forced to use. (Sunday was particularly horrific).
Let's face it, we use a Rugby Club who put up with us one night a week, unless we do a bank job and can get our own place or find a nicer place that will give our large club room then we'll just have to rely on our abundance of hunks. Let's face it chaps, we're sunk.
Drat. Thanks anyway Werner. If however, you ever find the world of Entry, descent and Landing systems a little jading, give us a hand solving the Rugby club problem! think of the advantages; no complex maths, no pernickety parachute release mechanisms....
I've got the answer. We get the rugby lads to change their night to a Wednesday. Any volunteers to try and persuade them ?
I'd make a distinction between what we're describing as mentoring i.e. meeting, greeting and running with new people who turn up on club night, and coaching, which I see as quite different. I am not qualified to coach and so wouldn't try it. I think that the initial welcome to our club and familiarisation with routes and pace etc. can be handled quite separately from coaching.
Mentoring means the same thing to me also Andy. The coaching issue is definitely separate.
I did'nt put my hand up at the meating. But after a little thought i'll be a mentor.
Rocket science isn't that dificult, just get a container with two holes, (one small with a bung in it) Over fill it with an inflamable substance or water will do. bung up the big hole pull out the bung in the small hole Woshhhh. Rocket science!! Nucklier fisicks thats even easer
I simply cannot agree, despite club tradition stretching back many years, that we should all start our Thursday run at 7pm. A handicap system works much better. Setting off at 7pm is fine for the faster runners in the club, but it does not work so well for slow runners, especially if they want to run the 10 mile route. If I set off at 7pm for the 10 miles, I would still be in the (cold) showers when Mick was making his announcements. (Like it or not, the showers are a factor, as much as I respect those fine young gentlemen from the rugby club.) I suggest that we should stagger runs from 6.30 to 7pm, say so on our web site so that newcomers know that if they want a fast pace then start later, if slower, think about setting off with a group closer to 6.30pm.
My first attempt at joining the club several years ago ended in dismal failure. I started with the wrong group and got a thorough pasting by about 5 miles. Several months later I returned and was lucky enough to meet Dave Coles and Mat Townsend who were extremely helpful, despite me being a slower runner. Without support from DaveC and Mat I would still be out there in the unattached wilderness. I would be happy to act as a mentor, pacer (obviously not a coach), or whatever on a rota basis if we can get some structure into Thursday evenings. After the AGM John Williams suggested to me that interested members could meet perhaps this Thursday to discuss this idea. The fact that it may have been tried before and failed is completely irrelevant. Let’s try again.
Let us also be clear about why we are trying to attract new members. What is the use of doing so if we cannot offer them any kind of support or even sufficient space to take a decent shower? I will make a late New Year resolution to look out for new runners on a Thursday and ask if they would like to tag along. But of course newcomers need to run with folks of a similar pace.
The problem with the showers is that once people start using them, the tank that initially starts off with hot water, is, obviously, topped up with cold water. Thus if some people come back early - then those using the showers 20 minutes later will have a cool/cold shower. The SOLUTION is not what time groups go out, but what time everyone comes back. The idea of the electric showers was that the hot water supply would not be used until 7.50 p.m. at the earliest. This was agreed back in 2003.
So go out whenever to suit your pace, but don't use the showers until 7.50 - thus fasties and not-so fasties, boys & girls, are all equal and all get hot showers. Rugger boys en masse don't normally come in until 8.15 ish so plenty of time.
So no more whinging please!!!!!!!!!!
Us ladies usually find that new runners are happy to run at a slower pace on their first visit if only slower runners are around when they arrive - or one of our faster runners (often Sue Neal) will slow down to run with them if they need it - other arrangements can then be made after the run for the following week. But then, we have been known to chat as we run!This is a good way to get to know people in the club, not just the ones at your pace.
In fairness Richie, We opened the issue up at the AGM and asked for comments. It's only fair that people give them. The electric showers were implemented to resolve the problem of the cold water tank, but have you tried using them recently?
I think that the issue of start time is related to precisely what you have iterated i.e getting back at the same time. If the slower runners start at 7pm they will be back after 8.15 for sure, hence the need for a staggered start. Every single call I take from a potential new member contains the same comment "Shall I be there for 7pm?". The answer in most cases is certainly not! It would be off-putting to have your first run with a sub-35min 10k runner if you are a 45min+ 10k runner (which is roughly what I was when I started). I think we simply need to advertise 2 start times to reap the benefit of one finishing time and enthused newcomers.
Well done DW for stimulating and ensuring good healthy debate! (Dave Weeden aka Werner Von Braun).
At risk of dropping a real clanger, 60p currently buys a hot shower at UWIC for non members of their fitness suite. If we were all to tramp over there we may get turned away in time, as there are only 2 showers in the men's, but it has proved to be an interim fix for a handful of people. UWIC employees in Les Croups will not thank me for saying this - sorry. I wonder though, whether this may help us if we were up front and approached UWIC formally? We used to use their older facility until it was demolished to make way for the new one.
Fine thread this !!! My 2d's worth, and - like entering the Durzley Dozen - I know I'll regret it... Lots being said here - but we may need to focus on what we are trying to achieve (eg when discussing things like recruitment in the context of capacity issues). I'd go with something lke "achieving sustained success and having fun whilst not taking for granted all that is good in the club (if its not broke etc..)". With this in mind, lots of v.impt but different topics and ideas were/are being raised by experienced club members who care much about LC and its members - NB especially NEW members (please note anyone thinking of joinging this club..). Is it worth categorising the different issues being raised so we can focus a bit, eating the elephant one chunk at a time (as Bud said) etc ? Tricky for me as the novice but here goes nothing : TRAINING (eg structure of the Thursday night runs where 'flexibility' to quote Mick, must be the key)), DEVELOPMENT (eg recruitment and retention issues, attracting younger members etc), COACHING (mentoring a specialised form of ? lots of other options though to learn from others - eg this web site from which I learnt about LC), INFRASTRUCUTRE (= mainly, but not just the showers ! - how about some healthier food ?), PARTNERSHIPS (eg with Llandaff RC, UWIC etc), EQUITY (access for all etc). Apols for the management speak... For such a large, successful and contented club, the very thought of changing anything may cause concern for some. Is it worth a meet to rationalise things a bit, putting them into perspective needless to say ?? Alcohol fed needless to say...
Ha ha, whilst you're all out running at the same time, at the same pace, all holding hands in a crocodile - I'm in the showers using up all the hot water....
Well said Tim. Separation of any perceived or real issues is key.
Matt - I've got an open mind, provided we're not talking crocodiles in the showers !
Being as Sam is knocking down Leckwith stadium. could't we ask Sam to build us a new pub/club. The CAC shackcan be moved to where we are now. Or anywhere realy cos i've never seen it beeing used.
Alan makes a good point there, good God did I really say that?
I presume Cardiff AC has oodles of cash, hence their own little hut,but would we fancy going in with them after all a lot of their events rely on our backing to take place.
I'd fancy shifting down to the 'Sports Village' as we'd be on top of a track plus it'd be handy for IKEA ;-)
Just two points with regards to Alan and Matt's suggestions. Firstly, I couldn't see Croups going in with Cardiff AAC (this is their actual title, Cardiff Athletic Club is actually Cardiff Rugby, Bowls and was the Sofia Gardens Cricket ground)considering that Croups was formed as a breakaway from them in the first place. And, secondly if we had either Leckwith or the Sports Village as a base, where would you propose we run? Would we get a good off-road summer run, and what about a traffic friendly winter run?
Phil, I was supporting Alan's suggestion to perhaps start some 'blue sky' thinking, you know 'out of the box' stuff, ok enough management speak.
I would never suggest a merger but rather a sharing of facilities with people who are less likely to have showers that look more like stables.
Les Croups did exist before moving to the Landaff 'facilities', can anyone enlighten everyone on pre-history of the lost tribe of McGeogh?
As for joining Cardiff AC I think this might be a good move as the majority of the club are V40 plus perhaps we should really start to concentrate on Crown Green bowls ;-)
What about approaching Cardiff Council's sports development team and work on a lottery bid to build a new club house. You could build it in the same area, may be it could be shared with a cricket club? but have a lease that sets out club nights and have a structured shared use. It will take up to 2 years to get the funding, I don't mind putting drawings and costings together as I'm a Building Surveyor. Bridgend did it so why can't we. May be putting on extra races could raise the partnering funds. Its not an immediate solution but its definately a better long term option.
Just to back up some of the views here about new members, I first ran out with the club on Nov 4th as a complete aged beginner and was well looked after by Mel James. The next couple of sessions I managed to get there early and find some similar ability runners. However for the next couple of weeks I couldn't find an obvious group to run with, tried to stay with a group, failed, with no one interested in trying to pace me along, got very isolated, and ended up with a cold shower ! Stopped enjoying it and haven't come again. Also doing the same route each week became uninspiring. Was also running with Penarth and Dinas on a Monday whose seesions I found far more useful and interesting, but virtually devoid of a social. Have moved away for the time being so the Thursday nights don't apply, but I don't think I'd rush back if I thought it was going to be the same.
Simon,
Very sorry that your experience in the latter part of your involvement with the club was not a good one. It has happened to all of us at one stage or another, runners tend to be very keen to stick to the session that they had planned, occasionally irrespective of the company they are in (running is an individual sport). It's important that you get into a group of similar ability as many runners plan the Thursday night as one of their main sessions. On the issue of routes, I'm not sure if you are aware, but the club has 3 winter routes, 5, 7.5 and 10 miles (admittedly variations on a theme) and again 3 summer routes along the Taf trail of roughly the same distance. The summer routes are traffic free. Other sessions available include hill sessions, occasional long social runs and mutlisport sessions for the Triathletes.
Penarth and Dinas are indeed a good club and I'm glad that you enjoyed their sessions. I also hope that you find some of the suggestions in the thread above strike a chord, and that they may encourage you to return in the future.
This is a really interesting discussion that could end up being very important for the club. I'd like to make three points.
1. There seems to be some dissatisfaction with the present facilities and this may affect our ability to recruit & retain new members, especially younger people used to leisure centres etc. This is a LONG TERM issue that needs careful discussion, especially if we move elsewhere. Some of the more recent ideas about going to CAAC & trying for lottery funding sound really interesting and well worth discussing in more detail. My own view is that such a move is inevitable over the next 2-3 yrs if we are to avoid becoming just the LC supervets club. Meanwhile we should try to improve the showers in the shorter term - some people now go home after the Thurs run to get a decent shower & then drive back later for a drink, which is a bit silly really.
2. We must do more to take care of new runners, maybe give then a welcome leaflet with contact details of mentors who will run with them till they settle in. Then they could email/phone the mentors (god, I hate that word!) to make sure they do not end up running alone on Thurs. I'd be happy to be on such a list.
3. The question of routes is surely up to the individual. Some of us have got bored with the winter 10 and have dome a new route up to Coryton/Tongwynlais & back thro Rady which is nice for a change. Also, we can freshen up the summer sessions by doing some fartlek along the 7m route - there is a nice measured 4m that's great for a bit of fast running. Our mates at San Domenico often have 4m fast runs on Wed that make a good change. So we need to think beyond the regular routes - they are not compulsory you know! And most importantly of all, it's up to US what we do. As Simon said, running is an individual sport, so lets think outside the box at bit.
Thanks Denis, those are all good suggestions. Don't know about the mates at San Domenico bit though. Do we have mates there?
I'm not keen on the word 'mentor' either, but I too would be willing to go on such a list.
I like the idea of going home for a shower. I already refuse to eat in the clubhouse, and go to the Conway for potable beer.
Can I suggest a solution to all your problems? Send any potential new members along to a small friendly Cardiff running club - San Domenico! No problems with hot water, and we don't have mentors, just people to run with you at your pace. More details on our website!
I told you they weren't our mates! This is the club who only recently allowed women to join! If you're male, and you can run faster than Ron Morris, they'll make you welcome. So they say.
How about 'Meet and greet' instead of 'mentor'? I think that quite a few new comers turn up due to the website. Unlike the majority of websites that I see, ours is updated near daily. A page on 'Join us for a run'etc. could state who is doing the meet & greet that week. I'll email Serps and ask them what they call their people who do this, if indeed they give it a name. I'd agree that 'mentor' sounds like it offers more than it will deliver.
Aaahh, Mr Mick Tabor. I can see that you are well schooled in the art of subterfuge (ignore Dave, we do consider San Dom our friends). Though I must take issue with the word "problems". They are of course, opportunities!!!
Just wondering if there is still going to be a committee meeting tonight to discuss the issues raised. If so does anyone know what time kick off is ?
Phil,
The committee meeting is always the 3rd Tuesday of the month, unless there is a good reason to change it, so the next one is the 22nd (which is technically the 4th Tuesday!). This will be confirmed on Thursday and I'd encourage you to attend. In the interests of an effective meeting, I would suggest that members who are considering attendance organise their thoughts and ideas prior to the meeting. It sounds like there will be lots of ideas floated and Tim is quite correct when he impresses the importance of identifying precisely what our targets and objectives are. With such a big club, there is bound to be bags of enthusiasm.
I really hate to suggest this, but with so many ideas and issues flying around and so many people obviously interested, would it be useful to have some sort of agenda for the committee meeting on the 22nd? Nothing too formal, but maybe a list of points for discussion. Otherwise we may get dozens of people showing up with lots of disconnected issues to discuss and things might turn into one long wingeing session. We still have 2 wks to organise our ideas.
Meanwhile, many thanks to our SD chums, who may have a 'small & friendly' club, but I notice that they still come to the incomparable LC website for a decent discussion! Some of them also meet at a certain rugby club on Western Ave when they fancy a challenging workout on a Sunday morning - see you there at 8.30 lads?
Well what have we started here? The AGM post script has certainly provoked some discussion. Which is great. It shows passion. It shows people care. However, one area which is perhaps the biggest concern is the turnover of ladies, and why younger ones aren't staying. It is very noticeable that of the 36 comments to date, only one is by a lady member. Ladies, please tell us what you think. You're never normally backward in coming forward. Give this super website (that you won't find in every club - so let's not sell ourselves short)a blast with some constructive criticism. PLEASE!
Just to add to the management speak - doing nothing is not an option! (trouble is, I didn't think it was an option 5 years ago).
Same course, same pace, same food, same (cold) showers = same problems of recruitment and retention.
If you weren't such a great bunch of people, with whom I have shared so many good times, I wouldn't come on Thursdays.
Lets find a window in our diaries and have a meeting. The best can get better!
Mick,
Just checking that you received my e-mail about Bedford Harriers' Absolute Beginners' Night, sent to you a day or two after the AGM. For others interested, please see bedfordharriers.co.uk - I'm sure you'll agree it's an excellent, informative website. Don't mean to sound vain, but please don't look at my photo on the "Runners Individual Pages!" OK, when you've looked at it, just bear in mind it was taken during our tough Oakley 20 - this year to be held on Sun 20 March, together with a 12 mile. Croups welcome (as Richie said at the AGM, the club doesn't seem to travel to races anymore)- I'm sure Harriers can help with accommodation. I'm proud and privileged to belong to the best running club in Wales and the best in England. Happy running - and debating! Ron
Well you asked us not to, so we simply had to! Veronica you looked great in full flight - so much so the picture is slighted blurred. One to be proud of! Thanks for pointing us in the direction of Bedford Harriers website, there are several areas there that could enhance our debate and offer viable suggestions for tackling some of the issues that have been raised. You are indeed lucky to be associated with two great clubs (first and second best in the World? I can only speak for Les Croups of course..)
Just a note to share our experience of going along to a new club in North Wales. We went along to Abergele Harriers last Wed evening. We were very surprised with a turnout of around 30+ runners.They meet at 6.45 pm at the Leisure Centre. At 7pm everyone gathers outside for "Mick McGeoch type announcements" about races etc. Then new runners are welcomed and told that 3 to 4 groups of runners will depart about 5 mins apart with a "mentor". The slower runners going off first and the racing snakes last of all. NO FEMALE IS ALLOWED TO RUN ON HER OWN. SHE MUST HAVE COMPANY THROUGHOUT THE RUN.Whilst running the club captain and a few other club members spend the whole time going back and forth checking that all is well and that everyone is safe.We were very impressed with the welcome they gave us and also how they looked after first timers.The club also has an "old goat" like Mick, a "Derek", a "Steve Lewis" a "Barry Johnston" a "Ruth" a "Wing Commander Sir John Cox" a "Lloydy", a "John Griffin" ........ (Need I go on)
Ah, but have they got a BELL ?!! Bet they have'nt got a bell. Nor indeed a "Flash" or anything resembling an "Alan Mann" - for so many of us image consultant, style guru and mentor all rolled into one. We take such things for granted at our peril. And the very idea of another (Saint) Mick is just too silly for words...
I have been interested to read the ongoings debates from the AGM, in particular the issue of new members, as I feel the club has lost numerous new women members in the past few months through them turning up alone, not being able to find anyone of their pace to run with, and just never coming again. If i had not come the first few times with a friend I would not have returned, as it can seem quite indimidating for new people. If there are enough women willing to lead runs weekly then fine, if not, how about a new members week once a month where anyone interested in joining could come along on the evening and go out on a run led by a volunteer? (runs of differing lengths and speeds). They could then be lured back to the clubhouse afterwards to meet all the presentable men (not forgetting the ugly bastards!)
I think that’s a very original idea from Cathy “that of having specific new comers” nights with route and pace to suit. I’m not sure which would work best “a special night, versus a designated willing volunteer each week. Making a special night of it may attract new comers, whereas there’ll always be people who turn up on the odd Thursday as well. We are getting some good ideas! Incidentally Serpentine got back to me very promptly “they simply call their runners in bibs ‘guides’ i.e. as individuals for new comers to look out for. I am told that they avoid the term ‘pacer’ due to its formality and also the fact that it may imply that exact pace judgement is critical, which I gather is not the aim. From my run with Serpentine however, their range of predicted paces was both considerate and accurate. Serpentine have also mastered the staggered start (as some of us were getting at about 40 comments ago), but this stems from the fact that what seems like several hundred runners assemble en masse for the safety brief in the first place —London being a bit different to Cardiff!
Dave you may look so pritty, but who has the girls asking to take them out. They don't mind me taking them out all together either. (don't tell Lolo)
The sheer volume of ideas and suggestions for improvement listed here is incredible. A big thankyou to all contributors. In the interests of turning some of your suggestions into proposals and proposals into actions, do we have a volunteer to organise some of these thoughts under a few broad headings? I would suggest something along the lines of; 1. New member retention 2. Start times 3. Facilities 4. Guides (mentors), . You may have other ideas. If somebody is willing to take ownership of this and tidy up the suggestions into meaningful categories, we have every chance of a successful committee meeting on the 22nd. Any volunteers?
Alan, you’re seeing Lolo? Not the diminutive Glaswegian chanteuse whose hits included “Shout” and “Boom Bang-a-Bang”?
Simon - I am happy to collate the comments into headings, so long as it is recognised that they are emergent themes and not all of them necessarily my own views. Nor do I wish to undermine the Committee!
Dave, i do the former she does the latter
An alternative venue to Llandaff RFC for your consideration: Llanishen Leisure Centre. From here there are plenty of varied training routes which could include Roath Park Lake, Heath Park, Thornhill, Glamorgan Canal. The Centre will have showers and other training facilities if required. Also there may be access to a public noticeboard which could be used to advertise Les Croupiers to other Centre users. Plenty of parking space is available around the area and it's relatively accessible from most parts of Cardiff.
Dave, good suggestion (and very nice to hear from you), but Llanishen car park is full on the evenings I've been there (not often, and not in the past year). There's enough going on, and the showers (I think there are only five in the mens') aren't really up to the circuits classes plus swimmers. Also, we need food. And drink! of course.
